Please click to see the Aticle from the Catholic Register by Mark Shae
My response is below.
I am sorry Mark, but I have no idea what you are talking about other than a put down of atheists and a raising up of Muslims. This piece that you call and article and is published in reputable Catholic journal is nothing but a series of ad-hmenium attacks on atheists.
Experience teaches just the opposite. There are many atheists I know who actually love thy neighbor, and in many ways other than their own ad-homenium attacks on we Christians live a Christ like life including living, which I believe Pope Francis I has recently pointed out Matt 25:31-46 not just as an action here and there but as an attitude, a way of life.
On the other hand Islam has in it's holy book has the concept of Jihad, now whether they pretend to be moderate or are violently engaged in Jihad, their Holy book commands thus, give the infidel a chance to convert and if he/she does not then kill he/she. Like it or not that is in their holy book, and it is a tenet of their "faith" no matter what their PR wing says. What we see in the world if we look at the facts only what we see is conversion to Islam rising while Islamic violence is also rising, one would expect except for Jihad to see an inverse relationship between the increases in violence and rising conversion rates. Increasing violence should draw people away from conversion not to it. But with jihad the force is convert them first once that occurs the converted or indoctrinated have accepted jihad and so the numbers of growing violence and conversion continues and it will Mark until they come for us individually. Ultimately their goal is to go to each and every individual and try to convert them and if they don't succeed to kill them this is what Allah commands.
I do not see this in atheists. I see many of them especially the secular humanists standing u for the poor and question us as Catholics thusly, "if we want to end abortion, we do we not support political programs parties and policy that help mothers and families and individuals in poverty. The Republican party while claiming to be pro-life, but never really doing anything about it except to court pour vote, continuously reject policies to help those in poverty and to take away what benefits those in poverty that are still left. Atheists question us on this dichotomy and with the words Pope Francis is no saying and particularly en cathdrea on the environment we cannot ignore these challenges just because the come from atheists or as John Paull II put it may in fact be anonymous Christians by their actions.
Additionally, atheists while they may not easily be converted are the easiest people to discus our faith with. All one has to do is point out that the do have a god the god of their own reason and they worship at his alter they think they can out think or figure that out. That get's them to think. Then one adds that hey I am the creature not the creature yes, there are many things that God does that I do not understand not because He is mean or does not exist but simply because I am the creature not the creator. Additionally I point out to atheists the evidence of God. Faith is not the lack of evidence faith is not the same as believe it is not the holding on to a belief or belief system in spite of the empirical evidence. Faith is knowledge. faith is a gift as well and it is well to remember that when dealing with atheists, faith is the certain knowledge of the spiritual realm, as knowledge as evidence it is based on personal experience with the spiritual realm. I have many such experiences I have personal knowledge and evidence of the spiritual realm that is faith.
What I tell my atheists friends is that A the universe is ordered we know that because using the simplest analogy 1 + 1 =2 it will always equal 2. Were the universe not ordered were it truly not ordered one time 1 + 1 would equal 2, the next time 1 + 1 would equal a black cow, and the next time 1 + 1 would equal a trip to the moon. But the universe is ordered mathematics even at it's highest levels proves this. Additionally we don't understand it all. Now if the universe is ordered and we don't yet order stand how it is ordered then who ordered it? The Creator. What is more we study and learn how the universe is ordered and it unfolds before us. From this study and learning we derive satisfaction and joy. Now we have proof of a God who ordered the universe and gives us pleasure in the learning of juts how He ordered it. Thus we have not only a creator but one who gives us joy and pleasure, thus the Creator God loves us.
Experience teaches just the opposite. There are many atheists I know who actually love thy neighbor, and in many ways other than their own ad-homenium attacks on we Christians live a Christ like life including living, which I believe Pope Francis I has recently pointed out Matt 25:31-46 not just as an action here and there but as an attitude, a way of life.
On the other hand Islam has in it's holy book has the concept of Jihad, now whether they pretend to be moderate or are violently engaged in Jihad, their Holy book commands thus, give the infidel a chance to convert and if he/she does not then kill he/she. Like it or not that is in their holy book, and it is a tenet of their "faith" no matter what their PR wing says. What we see in the world if we look at the facts only what we see is conversion to Islam rising while Islamic violence is also rising, one would expect except for Jihad to see an inverse relationship between the increases in violence and rising conversion rates. Increasing violence should draw people away from conversion not to it. But with jihad the force is convert them first once that occurs the converted or indoctrinated have accepted jihad and so the numbers of growing violence and conversion continues and it will Mark until they come for us individually. Ultimately their goal is to go to each and every individual and try to convert them and if they don't succeed to kill them this is what Allah commands.
I do not see this in atheists. I see many of them especially the secular humanists standing u for the poor and question us as Catholics thusly, "if we want to end abortion, we do we not support political programs parties and policy that help mothers and families and individuals in poverty. The Republican party while claiming to be pro-life, but never really doing anything about it except to court pour vote, continuously reject policies to help those in poverty and to take away what benefits those in poverty that are still left. Atheists question us on this dichotomy and with the words Pope Francis is no saying and particularly en cathdrea on the environment we cannot ignore these challenges just because the come from atheists or as John Paull II put it may in fact be anonymous Christians by their actions.
Additionally, atheists while they may not easily be converted are the easiest people to discus our faith with. All one has to do is point out that the do have a god the god of their own reason and they worship at his alter they think they can out think or figure that out. That get's them to think. Then one adds that hey I am the creature not the creature yes, there are many things that God does that I do not understand not because He is mean or does not exist but simply because I am the creature not the creator. Additionally I point out to atheists the evidence of God. Faith is not the lack of evidence faith is not the same as believe it is not the holding on to a belief or belief system in spite of the empirical evidence. Faith is knowledge. faith is a gift as well and it is well to remember that when dealing with atheists, faith is the certain knowledge of the spiritual realm, as knowledge as evidence it is based on personal experience with the spiritual realm. I have many such experiences I have personal knowledge and evidence of the spiritual realm that is faith.
What I tell my atheists friends is that A the universe is ordered we know that because using the simplest analogy 1 + 1 =2 it will always equal 2. Were the universe not ordered were it truly not ordered one time 1 + 1 would equal 2, the next time 1 + 1 would equal a black cow, and the next time 1 + 1 would equal a trip to the moon. But the universe is ordered mathematics even at it's highest levels proves this. Additionally we don't understand it all. Now if the universe is ordered and we don't yet order stand how it is ordered then who ordered it? The Creator. What is more we study and learn how the universe is ordered and it unfolds before us. From this study and learning we derive satisfaction and joy. Now we have proof of a God who ordered the universe and gives us pleasure in the learning of juts how He ordered it. Thus we have not only a creator but one who gives us joy and pleasure, thus the Creator God loves us.
These same arguments cannot be used with a follower of Islam a Muslim. Unfortunately they do not respond to either faith nor logic but only their own belief system.
And mark I have never heard of an atheist strapping on explosives and blowing up him/herself in the name of Allah.
Atheists can be reasoned with and converted, Muslims cannot.
One day a Muslim will approach each and every one of we Catholics and he/she will give us a chance to join their mosque and if we don't they will kill us. Because that is what their God says to do. This is not faith it is a belief system.
Mark, I could not disagree with you more and I do not understand the purpose of this article which seems to me to be a lot of name calling with no substance or evidence to back it up. There is too much of this among Catholic "writers" today. It is as if we are afraid of or believe knowledge intellect are bad things this is a tenant of fundamentalism not Catholicism; we have a long history of both intellectuals and mystics. And God supports this if God thought intellect was as somehow wrong or sinful then He would not have an omniscient aspect. Bu god is Omniscient, He knows all things and thus has a respect for knowledge has elevated it and approves and respects it in individuals.
Atheism is not a threat to the Church Mark Islam is.
The following is a response to my comment
Fred, I think what
Mark was trying to say in this column is that we need to
use our intellect to dispute with Muslims instead of just saying, "That's
gross, because atheists say the same thing about what we believe.
use our intellect to dispute with Muslims instead of just saying, "That's
gross, because atheists say the same thing about what we believe.
And my defense of my original comment
My first point is
with Mark's article in general. the writing is just not of the
caliber I would expect from as prestigious a publication as
the National Catholic Register. I'm not talking about editing,
because I have
my own challenges with that. However the content
is nebulous rich in ad-homeniums and low in useful content. My second point is
that
the title Disgust is not an argument backfires
on the
author. While It is perfectly understandable that Catholics, Christians and
indeed people of many faiths are disgusted with Islam and rightly so,
the teaching on Jihad is disgusting. The point
about Mohammad's urine I know nothing about. I know that
Islam is a cult that we Catholics have a long history
of battle with them, I know that St. Francis tried to get
the Muslims to martyr him during one of
the crusades and instead they were amused by him
and he even ended up converting a member of the sultan's
court. However Islam in their holy book contains not just
the suggestion but the tenet of jihad and to not take this
seriously and I even gave an example from the facts the sheer numbers that we
see in the world today. More and more people are converting to Islam as they
become more and more violent, again as I stated one would think that the
inverse would be true the more violent a cult like Islam becomes
the fewer converts we should see. Jihad says give the infidel
an opportunity to convert and if they don't then kill them and do this
until there are only Muslims left on earth. What this has to do with
drinking Mohmand’s urine I do not know but I do find it disgusting.
Atheists on the
other hand I don't find disgusting I find them confused arrogant intellectually unsaved
but capable of saving. They worship their own minds and seem to
think that the creature should be able to figure out the mind of the creator
which as I point out to my atheist friends on a regular basis is a logical fallacy.
When they poke fun at out traditions when appropriate I enjoy the
joke when inappropriate I defend the faith. Things
like the real presence can
be understood logically in the atheist mind as mystery. So I
do not find them digesting nor do I think they
are disgusted with Catholics especially when the
verses about clove the neighbor, love thy
enemy and Matt 25:31-46 are pointed out to them. Most atheists
are gifted intellectually and they support there
concepts from a very real concern about humanity.
One of the truths that
atheists like to point out about Christians is that we do not live up to these
verses. I do not find this disgusting I find it true. As a Catholic
with an inner life when these things are printed out to me I
have to reflect how well have I incorporated for example,
Matt 25:31-46 not just as theory are a once in a while thing but
as a way of life the Catholic way of life.
So
the title backfires on Mr. Shae. Islam is disgusting because of the
tenet of Jihad it disgusts me and many others. While
the comments of atheists are not disgusting
at all but cause me to think to stand up for my
faith to point out their errors using logic which is
something they do understand.
Atheists believe
that their minds are god so they should be able to logically figure God
out using their minds. This proof course is a logical
fallacy historical in nature but one
that atheists do understand. How
could the creature's mind be capable of understanding the
mind of the creator?
Another point I
made and how the title backfires is that Muslims are
disgusting the strap themselves with bombs and they blow
up themselves and innocent people in the name of
Allah. I find this to be disgusting, and I have never heard of
an atheist doing such a thing.
The threat from Islam
is real and disgusting the threat from Atheism is not
disgusting it is the same old
thing we Catholic intellectuals with atheists Friends have
been dealing with for years in our efforts to convert them.
My final point is that
there is way too much of this nebulous name calling finger pointing
ad-hominums in Catholic periodicals, without sufficient care
in either citing sources or proving facts. Some Catholics may find this
type of writing entertaining. I do not. And I can see
how an atheist might see this piece as disgusting,
because will quite frankly I find it to be disgusting
and insulting to my intelligence and
faith myself.
Additionally if
someone else has to explain to me what another writing is saying
they are not writing very well. Sue. I think
I understand perfectly clearly what Mark was trying
to say all too clearly.
And again I must
remember it is the Holy Spirit that does the converting not me.
Additionally I want to
share my tender love and Christian affection for both you
and Mark Sue we are all Catholics having received the sacrament of
confirmation we are family We are bonded to each other and the Holy
spirit through apostolic succession with a spiritual bond that cannot
be broken by mere words and disagreements.
Ave Maria,
Fred Celio
Ps I think Mark uses
the phases about drinking Mohammad's urine for it's shock
value and really has no place in a distinguished Catholic
periodical particularly when he does not explain what it
means.
Comments and disagreements are encouraged.
Comments and disagreements are encouraged.
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