Reviewed the following debate initially posted on airmaria.com
http://airmaria.com/2010/02/22/catholicism-vs-christianity-debate-penance/#commentsHere is my response
My prayers are ascending for Fr. Pacwa. He was put in a very difficult position. It is to his credit that he appeared on this show at all.
The show or “debate” was obviously skewed in favor of Protestantism, and in fact specific form of Protestantism — evangelicalism, fundamentalism or as I refer to them fundies. The framing was as if to put the Church and Church doctrine on the defensive. It is the protestants who are outside of the kingdom of heaven on earth after committing a mortal sin, after baptism. Certainly not we Catholics and certainly not Father Pacaw.
John Ackenberg himself is a leader in the fundamentalist movement. This movement holds as fundamental a certain socio-political point of view. Their socio-political point of view is in line with Church Doctrine in some cases, but certainly not in all. Even with regard to the Gospel of life in which fundies support capital punishment, and present Poverty as a choice of the impoverished, and thus due to some sin or moral failing on their part.
The Late Dr. Martin, was also a fundie. they really loaded the deck against Fr. Pacwa.
Since the premise of the debate is that Catholic doctrine and the fundamental socio-political point of view of modern evangelicals is on an equal footing, or more precisely that the burden of proof of christian doctrine was put on Catholic doctrine, the premise is thus that the evangelical fundamental socio-political point of view is accepted as the standard, and Catholic Doctrine is framed as being non-christian. Thus the since premise is false therefore there is no true debate. I wish Fr. Pacwa had pointed out that the premise was false and, thus the result was predetermined, rather than appearing on such a program. I am not in the habit of criticizing priests, particularly in a public form, however I wonder if Fr. Pacwa had permission from his bishop to participate in such an anti-catholic forum.
Fundamentalism is hostel to Catholicism, and believe as with all cults that they have exclusive knowledge of the truth.
They also believe that the Pope is the anti-Christ. I know this having at one time been a memebr of the Calvary Chappell movement.
The idea that Acenberg would refer to Trillian and Origen is ludicrous. Fr. Pacwa should have pointed this out. Both Trillian and Origen are part of the apostolic succession. Ackenberg and Dr. Martin are not. This fact alone is enough to question their credibility, particularly their quoting Fathers of the Church and Church councils. They simply do not have the benefit of the Church’s history of tradition to be taken seriously, even if they use pseudo intellectualism, which is not a substitute for direct linkage and thus complete understanding of the truth.
Protestantism started with Luther not Trillian. One cannot break the chain and then claim linkage.
The change in form of the sacrament of confession is due to a more fuller understanding of the doctrine given to the church by Jesus as reviled by the Holy Spirit to the Popes and Magisterium, using the mechanism that Jesus put into place as we documented in the New Testament.
Again Protestants cannot break the chain and then claim linkage, using some intellectual slight of hand. Fundies do this in order to promote their socio-political agenda which has as it’s end world domination and the elimination of Catholicism.
I for one am offended that a Catholic priest would share the stage with such heretics and not call them what they are. I do not think that such a “debate” starting from the false premise that fundies have some sort of valid claim to the truth, is what the venerable John Paul II meant in his encyclical on ecumenism.
Simply by a Catholic Priest sharing the stage with such heretics, and participating in a forum framed by a premise that is itself heretical lends credence to the heresy.
While those born into Protestantism are not responsible for the original heresy, which has biased them to the truth. I don not understand why any protestant who has reached middle age living in the USA with our freedoms to explore the truth and freedom of religion has not converted. I protestant born into such heretical biases in another country not having our freedoms, yes I can understand their not converting. But someone in the US does not have restricted access to the truth.
We are the church that Jesus founded we do not have to defend ourselves or are practices to anyone. We simply express the truth by our lives and our words, and invite others as Jesus did to come and see. Jesus was asked, “where do you live”. His response was an invitation to “come and see”. We wrote the new testament, I think we know what it means.
By sharing the stage with such heretics, I know that Fr. Pacwa was trying to implement in tangible way the Venerable John Paul II’s words on ecumenism. However, I think all he did was to lend credence, credibility and a sense of equality to the fundamental heresies of the evangelical movement. We Catholics are the leaders in evangelism not the followers. I do not think it is ecumenical to participate in a pseudo intellectual discussion as if protestant doctrine were somehow equal to Christian doctrine.
As for Dr. Martin I shall add his name to the purgatory, in the hopes that by Our Lord’s divine mercy he may enjoy eternity in heaven with Our Lord, of course he as many others will be surprised to see the crown on Blessed Mother’s head. perhaps this was the only reason for my having seen this presentation.
The show or “debate” was obviously skewed in favor of Protestantism, and in fact specific form of Protestantism — evangelicalism, fundamentalism or as I refer to them fundies. The framing was as if to put the Church and Church doctrine on the defensive. It is the protestants who are outside of the kingdom of heaven on earth after committing a mortal sin, after baptism. Certainly not we Catholics and certainly not Father Pacaw.
John Ackenberg himself is a leader in the fundamentalist movement. This movement holds as fundamental a certain socio-political point of view. Their socio-political point of view is in line with Church Doctrine in some cases, but certainly not in all. Even with regard to the Gospel of life in which fundies support capital punishment, and present Poverty as a choice of the impoverished, and thus due to some sin or moral failing on their part.
The Late Dr. Martin, was also a fundie. they really loaded the deck against Fr. Pacwa.
Since the premise of the debate is that Catholic doctrine and the fundamental socio-political point of view of modern evangelicals is on an equal footing, or more precisely that the burden of proof of christian doctrine was put on Catholic doctrine, the premise is thus that the evangelical fundamental socio-political point of view is accepted as the standard, and Catholic Doctrine is framed as being non-christian. Thus the since premise is false therefore there is no true debate. I wish Fr. Pacwa had pointed out that the premise was false and, thus the result was predetermined, rather than appearing on such a program. I am not in the habit of criticizing priests, particularly in a public form, however I wonder if Fr. Pacwa had permission from his bishop to participate in such an anti-catholic forum.
Fundamentalism is hostel to Catholicism, and believe as with all cults that they have exclusive knowledge of the truth.
They also believe that the Pope is the anti-Christ. I know this having at one time been a memebr of the Calvary Chappell movement.
The idea that Acenberg would refer to Trillian and Origen is ludicrous. Fr. Pacwa should have pointed this out. Both Trillian and Origen are part of the apostolic succession. Ackenberg and Dr. Martin are not. This fact alone is enough to question their credibility, particularly their quoting Fathers of the Church and Church councils. They simply do not have the benefit of the Church’s history of tradition to be taken seriously, even if they use pseudo intellectualism, which is not a substitute for direct linkage and thus complete understanding of the truth.
Protestantism started with Luther not Trillian. One cannot break the chain and then claim linkage.
The change in form of the sacrament of confession is due to a more fuller understanding of the doctrine given to the church by Jesus as reviled by the Holy Spirit to the Popes and Magisterium, using the mechanism that Jesus put into place as we documented in the New Testament.
Again Protestants cannot break the chain and then claim linkage, using some intellectual slight of hand. Fundies do this in order to promote their socio-political agenda which has as it’s end world domination and the elimination of Catholicism.
I for one am offended that a Catholic priest would share the stage with such heretics and not call them what they are. I do not think that such a “debate” starting from the false premise that fundies have some sort of valid claim to the truth, is what the venerable John Paul II meant in his encyclical on ecumenism.
Simply by a Catholic Priest sharing the stage with such heretics, and participating in a forum framed by a premise that is itself heretical lends credence to the heresy.
While those born into Protestantism are not responsible for the original heresy, which has biased them to the truth. I don not understand why any protestant who has reached middle age living in the USA with our freedoms to explore the truth and freedom of religion has not converted. I protestant born into such heretical biases in another country not having our freedoms, yes I can understand their not converting. But someone in the US does not have restricted access to the truth.
We are the church that Jesus founded we do not have to defend ourselves or are practices to anyone. We simply express the truth by our lives and our words, and invite others as Jesus did to come and see. Jesus was asked, “where do you live”. His response was an invitation to “come and see”. We wrote the new testament, I think we know what it means.
By sharing the stage with such heretics, I know that Fr. Pacwa was trying to implement in tangible way the Venerable John Paul II’s words on ecumenism. However, I think all he did was to lend credence, credibility and a sense of equality to the fundamental heresies of the evangelical movement. We Catholics are the leaders in evangelism not the followers. I do not think it is ecumenical to participate in a pseudo intellectual discussion as if protestant doctrine were somehow equal to Christian doctrine.
As for Dr. Martin I shall add his name to the purgatory, in the hopes that by Our Lord’s divine mercy he may enjoy eternity in heaven with Our Lord, of course he as many others will be surprised to see the crown on Blessed Mother’s head. perhaps this was the only reason for my having seen this presentation.
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copyright 2010 Fred Celio
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